by Allan Fish
We will be going ahead with the seventies poll in a couple of weeks, but we need to take stock beforehand. There are numerous reasons. Firstly, to give everyone a chance to see the films they may want to see before submitting choices for the sixties poll. Secondly, to allow Sam to do his duty and actually watch some of the stuff from the 1970s he’s had in his possession a few aeons so he can make a proper opening submission of his top 25 of the next decade. Thirdly, there will be a couple of clarifications to make before submissions for the seventies poll…
In the interim, I will be beginning a series of entries on films which, though they wouldn’t make my best lists of given decades, fall into one of two categories. Either personal favourites that I perhaps rate higher than I should (GUILTY PLEASURES) and the odd rarity long-neglected by western specialists (GUILTY CRITICS).
As per the title of this post, now we’re in the seventies it’s here that we move into a slightly blurry field of what counts as cinema and what as TV. Film connoisseurs are happy to talk about Fassbinder’s TV output Jailbait, World on Wires, Berlin Alexanderplatz, etc, as cinematic works, as they are Bergman’s Scenes from a Marriage, Face to Face and Fanny and Alexander, Petersen’s Das Boot, Reitz’s Heimat trilogy, Kieslowski’s full Dekalog, Rossellini’s The Age of Cosimo de Medici, Von Trier’s The Kingdom, Ophuls’ The Sorrow and the Pity, Zeffirelli’s Jesus of Nazareth and others. Yet all the above were originally made and shown on TV before showings in often edited versions in cinemas in various parts of the world. Even some later British television series, from The Singing Detective to more recently Red Riding, have received film showings outside of the UK in arthouse cinemas. Even recently, David Thomson in his ‘Have You Seen?’ included such recent TV works as Twenty-Thousand Streets Under the Sky and Longford in its listings.
As many of these would really be permissable in a given poll of their respective decades. So to be fair, I have decided to allow any TV work into the list so long as it falls under the category of one of the following
A one off DRAMATISED serial based around an original script or novel/play (in others words, the likes of Brideshead Revisited, The Singing Detective and Boys from the Blackstuff are valid, but The Sopranos, Star Trek, Buffy, Doctor Who, Twin Peaks, The West Wing, Deadwood, Talking Heads, Cracker, The Wire are not. No serials likewise will be allowed if cheap sequel series with slightly changed titles came afterwards (so no Lonesome Dove, no Rich Man Poor Man, no House of Cards, etc.), or if one off specials followed (e.g. Blackpool). Likewise, with Cranford having a second run at Christmas this year it, too, cannot be counted.
A one off TV film that must have been shown cinematically elsewhere (examples include The Last Seduction (shown on cable before going to cinemas, hence Linda Fiorentino being denied an Oscar nom), and the likes of Made in Britain, Longford and Boy A from the UK).
So no series that ran for a number of series, no sitcoms, no documentaries unless shown cinematically in certain quarters (like the Marcel Ophuls works or MacQueen’s Gulag). No place for say the works of David Attenborough, Simon Schama or Michael Wood, Kenneth Clark’s Civilisation, Ken Burns’ The Civil War or The West, Jacob Bronowski’s The Ascent of Man or, more recently, Lawrence Rees’ Auschwitz. I also will not allow Michael Apted’s Up Series as this has stretched over decades and would be impossible to quantify.
Appropriately, the Movie Timelines are now amended to cater for this change and the TV works will now be listed in italics in those listings. I didn’t make a point of this change in the 1960s as, though it was the decade of some strong TV dramas in the UK (An Age of Kings, The Forsyte Saga, The Caesars, The First Churchills, etc), it was really in the 1970s that the great series started to take hold.
I hope this hasn’t confused the issue any, but we had to be clear before progressing with the modern polls. We can’t allow certain TV works in because film directors made them, and not allow others just because they weren’t made by film directors.
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Writers/Founders
“Secondly, to allow Sam to do his duty and actually watch some of the stuff from the 1970s he’s had in his possession a few aeons so he can make a proper opening submission of his top 25 of the next decade.”
As I’ve stated previously, my schedule apart from my full-time teaching job, a wife and five kids, ages 13, 12, 10, 7 and 6, includes a frantic itinerary of plays, operas, concerts and theatrical film releases. (and before it’s thrown back at me, negatively, time to write reviews and to blog at other sites, two necessary directions in managing a blog site)
I have seen about 98% of what needs to be seen for the purposes of this 70’s polls and the ones that follow. There is a very small handful that I hope to complete before casting my own ballot. At 54 years old, I’d say I have spent an ungodly amount of my living time in front of plasmas and television screens watching all the works of cinema that any true cineaste would need to negotiate to make a successful go at this daunting venture.
Yes, there are imperative items I need to see, like everyone else on these threads, but I have no misgivings for what I’ve accomplished, often at the expense of so many more important issues in everyday life. I have watched (in theatres) well over 120 films per anum every year from 1975 till the present day. That’s almost 35 years. The number of DVDs, Beta and VHS tapes, and laserdiscs I’ve watched is impossible to count. My LD collection once reached about 1,500 pieces, and I presently own over 4,000 original DVDs, and maybe 2,000 copies of DVDs. I own over 400 Region 2 DVDs and all but a handful of every single Criterion title released (on originals) Most of my collection has been watched at least once, many others multiple times. I own over 1,000 original film scores on CD, over 2,500 original classical and opera CDs, and about 150 original opera DVDs. Then there’s the matter of watching films more than once in the theatre and film festivals of classic films all over Manhattan and North Jersey, and listening to opera and classical music CDs. I saw FAR FROM HEAVEN 21 times in the theatre in 2002, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg. So many others I’ve seen 4,5, 6, or 7 times, dragging so many Fairview residents along in the process.
How many hours are there in one day? This is not boasting here, just “defending myself.” That said, I am well aware I am hardly the only movie fanatic here, and Allan for one is also in a class that’s hard to match. My biggest problem is that I must share my love of film with music and theatre. Music probably rates a slight edge over the other two in my affection.
God, you bought the bait this time. No problem with saying that, old boy, it’s the “I must see this asap” you keep putting on the site when you will happily wait aeons that’s annoying.
You are right on that point, no doubt Allan, it’s just that sometimes things are beyond my control. Not always, but some of the time.
And by the way, where has all this cultural obsession here gotten me?
You know it! In the”poor house.”
Ha! I bet more than a few others on these threads are in the same predicament!
If I’m desperate I know whose house I’ll be hitting up! Two labs and a pug shouldn’t be a problem.
Not when the pug pisses everywhere and doesn’t get thrown into the Hudson attached to a breezeblock.
There is no need to defend yourself Sam.
Frankly, the level of commitment that Allan achieves is possible only when you have the freedom of being single and having a doting mother deal with all the domestic distractions that having a family entails.
And more broadly, having seen many many films comes at a cost. Better to have a wider experience of life, have read more books, traveled, made more mistakes, in any endeavor, be it film criticism or teaching.
This is what is wrong with film blogging, too many young wannabes still wet behind the ears and unread, who still have the temerity to pontificate…
Well Tony (Nick) not a single word there that is wrong. You’ve nailed it lock, stock and barrel.
Allan,
As you are both a Brit and TV afficianado, I have to ask, were you a fan of Tommy Cooper? I had never even heard of the man until tonight, when a friend of mine unearthed a VHS tape celebrating his career (he’d found it in the lobby of his apartment building, in a box marked “Take Me – I’m Free” which also included dozens of 80s movies taped off TV, a few NFL videos, and an incredibly cheesy promotional tape for a low-grade Halloween amusement park in Massachussetts).
Oh, the great Tommy, he died on stage on live TV in 1984 when I was 11. A great man, there are DVDs of him on R2 and various clips on Youtube.
Yes, imagine my surprise when the video reached its end and the commentators indicated his unique demise! Was he as popular in Britain as the tape let on, or a cult phenom even there? I think my friend put the video in the VCR expecting something rather cheesy, but we both ended up laughing pretty hard – not at Tommy, but with him, or rather with him and at him, as intended.
Exactly, and yes, he was big, just as he never appeared in films in the US they dismiss him, as they dismissed Morecame and Wise.
Can we get a clarification on Killer of Sheep? Made in 1977, never distributed due to musical rights issues, finally given a limited theatrical release in 2007. I think it may have played at film fests in the 1970s and had some one-night-only screenings in LA at the time, but Wikipedia isn’t very helpful on that score. 1970s film or 2000s film? And, yes, I care because I adore the film.🙂
1970s, Andrew. It’s 1977 and is there on the sidebar.
When a film is delayed by five years or more, we revert to the date of what would have been its release.
Think of the Eastern European films held up indefinitely by hardline Communism.
Interrogation (1982, first seen 1990)
Asya’s Happiness (1966, first seen 1987)
Komissar (1967, first seen 1987)
Andrei Rublev (1966, first seen 1971)
Unlike those KOS did get showings in 1977, very limited, but it was seen and released.
All it needs is a screening or an attempt to screen foiled by authorities.
Thanks for the clarification, Alan! I missed the reference to the film.
Andrew, I am with you all the way too on KILLER OF SHEEP. A masterpiece in the truest sense of the word. Thank you Sir.
Am I to understand that we are now allowing TV presentations to be mixed into the decade polls. I do not see why this is necessary and I do not believe we should be changing the rules in midstream.
Where did this proposal come from? Is this a unilateral decision coming from across the pond?
The title of the poll is Best Movies of the (decade) .. Not best TV. We can always do TV seperately as we have in the past.
I couln’t agree with Angelo more….have a separate entry for tv!
OK, so then we will have to discount any film that was originally made for TV – so no World on Wires, no Fanny and Alexander, no Heimat, no Berlin Alexaderplatz, no Dekalog, no Hitler a Film from Germany, no Scenes from a Marriage, no The Age of Cosimo de Medici, no Das Boot, no Underground. Just because these films were later shown in edited or intact versions on film, does not mean they weren’t TV. No serious film organisation would omit them, so it’s only fair that we allow certain TV – certainly not all – to be included. The Singing Detective was released cinematically in arthouses and appears in some film guides. So we ignore this, too.
Most TV is not eligible, but some are if they are of the same format as the international works that are shown cinematically – ie. one off serials. Read the statement thoroughly and see which ones are included, which are not.
Angelo’s just complaining because it means even more foreign stuff will be considered that he might have thought ineligible. I personally could not submit to a listing that doesn’t allow anything at all first shown on TV and makes the list incomparable with any other serious organisation.
No Allan. I did not condider if more foreign stuff would be considered under the proposed rules. I object to changing the rules in midstream.
Why all of a sudden. Were there no TV productions in the 60’s?
Apparently Sam has yielded the title of Pollmeister to you and given you total control.
Congtratulations.
I have yielded to no one, and to this point have stayed clear of this controversy. I will give the entire matter some serious thought, but only when the current 60’s poll is concluded, tabulated and posted.
At this point I lean towards Allan’s thinking, but allow me time to weigh everything.
I didn’t in the sixties, Angelo, because there were very few TV serials – the only thing that could count by my rules that you obviously haven’t read – that could be considered. The Forsyte Saga, An Age of Kings, The First Churchills, certainly nothing from the US. Strictly speaking, yes, I should have done it for the 60s, for the sake of that handful, but there was nothing especially glaring there.
As I said, SERIES are not allowed, SERIALS are.
Star Trek is not allowed, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, Thriller, are all not allowed. Nor are British equivalents Doctor Who, or more recent series like The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Buffy, The West Wing and countless others.
The only ones allowed are TV or cable movies (only if they played in cinemas in the UK or US) or serials (one off events no different to the classic German, Swedish, Polish and likewise series, allowed by critics simply because they were directed by film directors, nothing more.
My main question is where do you come in making the rules.
OK, so Sam asks me to moderate on every question of eligibility and chronology, which I do. This is the same thing.
As for where do I come, where do you come insisting otherwise?
Where do I come putting lists and pages up on the site? Where do I come making any comments? How dare I do such a thing?
I bow to thee oh Tabulator Extraordinaire, as Sam ridiculously calls you.
Everything is in order, we don’t want to have any problems.
I think there is a strong case for 70s TV, even beyond the UK. The late 70s was prolific for European TV with major productions from RAI in Italy and Canale in France. I was privileged to see many such mini-series on our SBS channel in the 70s and 80s. Perhaps the best was from Poland Nights and Days (Noce i Dni) (1975) directed by Jerzy Antczak.
Nick: I never heard of that Polish series, but I will google it now. Thanks. And I am inclined to agree with your general thrust here.
Allan, let’s be honest, you would walk over hot coals to get to the computer to post your items. Posting on this website is your life. Afterall, what else would you do if you weren’t.
Oh far from it, Angelo, old boy. These reviews were written over the course of many years and not for the purpose of posting online. Sam asked me to include them on the site. But I have said all along that, if someone else would step up to the plate, I will gladly step aside. And I fully intend to do so when the decade polls are over. You may not believe so, as others don’t seem to either, but come around next Easter when these polls are due to finish, I would hope that people have had a good long think at who’s going to take over here, because your refusal to believe in my intentions will leave Sam in the lurch on the site. I have given that notice before and give it again here.
Yes, pieces not to do with the polls are going up, but these are fillers to keep the site ticking between polls, there will be no more of them once we get through the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 1895-1920s and the 2000s.
They would be valid, Tony, for sure, as they seem to fall into the one off serial (mini-series) category.
Would it be asking to much for two lists to be submitted. The top 25 movies and a second one for the top 25 tv shows. By the end of the poll, there would be 100 tv shows suggested by everyone to follow up on. Allan would have all those titles that he’s suggested and it would allow for 25 (pure) film intended for the theatres. The latter could still include tv movies such as Duel, Jesus of Nazereth, ect, etc.
It would probably by more work for Angelo, tho, but it would satify everyone.
Not me, though, Bobby, as we’d have to scrap Berlin Alexanderplatz, Fanny and Alexander, Scenes from a Marriage, World on Wires, Underground, Das Boot, the Heimats, Dekalog, Lady Chatterley, The Age of Cosimo de Medici, and numerous others from being allowed as they were originally made for TV which would thus totally separate it from critical opinion and make the list utterly devoid of worth.
Anyway, I think the arguments against are merely a build up of ill-feeling against my pieces for some time. I have been accused of egotism by several people and I really can do without that from people who don’t know me from Adam.
Now I’m being dictated to about the poll when I have done all the work towards it, and just getting two-penneths sent my way from everyone.
Last night’s proceedings made me very angry and I retired early to get some rest, but the site workload has been extremely stressful and I haven’t really got anything out of it to remotely make that stress worthwhile.
My honest feelings now are that I have no real incilination to carrying on with the polls and countdowns at all and I will have to give it some deep thought. I would be deeply grateful if someone else would like to step into my shoes and take over earlier than Easter as originally intended. I need to take a break from the site for a while, so I will. There are a couple of pieces scheduled to appear, but I will then just take a sabbatical for a while to think it over.
Thanks, Bobby, for tryign to act as mediator, but it’s really made me sit up and take note of what’s important in my life, and this isn’t it.
Does this really need to be aired out in public?
Er, yes, I think, as just letting things drift and doing nothing about it while I end up getting angrier and angrier was doing no-one any good. I’m taking a break from it. That’s all. What I do after I’ll decide then. I just don’t want to even look at the site at the moment. As such, I need a time out.
Give Allan a break. If you don’t like the rules then don’t vote.
Nick (Tony) is right. As much as I do not remotely agree with Allan as to his perceived notion of “unpopularity” (he has dedicated his life to film, watches movies from day till night, and writes reviews afterwards) and not a single blogger critic–not a single one–can match his knowledge, command and exposure. And he contends for the top spot as a writer too.
Allan is a dear personal friend (as is Angelo) and he admits he has suffered depression through his life. I do NOT want this site to add to his grief, I want it to at the very least give him cause for relief.
I do not blame Angelo D’Arminio for raising questions (the same way I don’t fault our esteemed and affable Bobby J. for doing the same), but I renounce the way the thread progressed.
While Allan (despite what he contends) is the main player here at Wonders in the Dark, despite my frantic but failing attempts to keep up with him, I also have appreciated greatly the time-consuming work that Angelo D’Arminio has put in as poll tabulator. We will stay the course in this regard.
As proprietor of the site I hereby will render a ruling right now on the television controversy. The rules, as specified by Allan Fish in the lead text of this post will be honored. I buy into his argument that original exposure in movie theatres validates inclusion. While I fully understand Angelo’s query as to “changing the rules in midstream” I also comprehend Allan’s subsequent explanation concerning the advent of major work surfacing during the 70’s.
However, Allan’s fecund compatriot Bobby J., a great fan of classic television, has now convinced us that we need to conduct a massive and all-inclusive television poll at this site at the conclusion of the decade polls. So be it. Let it be written. Let it be done.
And Allan, next April is a long, long, long time into the future and even longer for bloggers. Sites are falling by the wayside every day. Let’s all hope we live that long. LOL!!! We need to focus on one day at a time. The fact that we have survived since September is a staggering accomplishment, especially at the frantic pace we proceed at.
Nick (Tony d’Ambra): You lasted two years at Films.Noir.net. I must marvel at how you managed this! Tenacity? Masochism?
The problem with introducing a separate TV poll is that we’re now on the 1970s. And surely we cannot allow TV items in considered as part of the film poll, so hence a TV poll would be incomplete. Sam does tend to authorise things and thinks not a jot about the logistics.
This will make me sound like Angelo, but for such an idea to run it needed to run alongside the 1950s and 1960s poll. We can’t just start a TV poll now. If we had a TV poll, we’d have to include all TV, and to include all TV, we’d have to include the international pieces from the film poll. It’s not pheasible to do a TV poll per decade.
Maybe at the very end of the 2000s, we can do one massive TV poll and include whatever we want then, whether in film polls or not. That would seem better, with each person having 50 per ballot not 25.
Maybe at the very end of the 2000s, we can do one massive TV poll and include whatever we want then, whether in film polls or not. That would seem better, with each person having 50 per ballot not 25.
Allan, Allan, Allan……
That is exactly what I was suggesting in my post above! Did you read it all? LOL!
Boy, when it comes to high drama and tensions, there’s not a site on the net to match this one. No wonder the IMDB and other “celebrities” have come here. But I must admit I love it! You guys can’t be topped!
Good one Joe! Love it!
Speaking of television pieces that have had exposure in theatres, I would like to mention here that I finally watched the four-hour Fassbinder “science-fiction” opus, WORLD ON WIRES last night on my basement plasma, seding the natives running for refuge upstairs (where they viewed Abbot and Costello meets Frankenstein for the umteenth time) Allan’s review on these pages months ago pretty much says it all, but what a cerebral mind bender this was. Several times I needed to replay sequences, and at the end of the day I can only offer my own interpretation of what this extraordinary piece is saying, (what is surreal here, for example, and what isn’t) but it much be counted among Fassbinder’s supreme masterpieces both in its bleak vision and it’s stunning and frantic execution. Although it is set at a future time, the set design is deliberately downplayed to throw further roadblocks up to diciphering this.
As Allan has written a most fine review, at some time in the future I hope to see what Ed Howard comes up with here. He is one of the few who can (and will) negotiate this on the highest level of interpretation.
This will make my Top 25 1970’s list, without question.
Next up for me will be the mega-marathon OUT 1 by Jacques Rivette, which is another 70’s piece I must see before casting a ballot. I can’t start tonight as I must write my review of Pixar’s wonderful UP (seen over the weekend) but I will begin ASAP.
Sam’s comments above are appreciated – if as usual very political – but I feel that Angelo’s feelings about my pieces being up too much echo many people’s feelings, so at least until the 70s poll there will be no more Guilty Pleasures and the like. Likewise, between future polls, there will be nothing from me. That’s irrevocable. I promised Sam I would continue through the decades, so I will keep my promise, but I need some peace away from this site (though Sam knows that through his inability to post his own pieces, I will have to make daily visits to post his work). Sam, you really must learn this simplistic thing yourself.
No Angelo’s feelings most assuredly do not echo the feelings of others. WitD readers have grown accustomed (and in a most appreciative way) of your material–it is in large measure the essence of this site–and I think the sometimes extensive comment threads under them enforces this contention. In th eheated battle of words, comments will be made that aren’t to be taken at face value.
My defence of you was NOT political, (that’s a very cynical appraisal, sad to say) it was aimed at acknowledging all you have done here, while at the same time trying to maintain the teamwork that has made the site as relatively successful as it has been.
As far as not posting, that is your decision of course.
Yes, but the posts in between polls are excessive, Sam. I only post them to fill in a gap, they’re fillers and nothing more. They’re unnecessary. I have deleted the several that were on schedule and will leave it at that. Let mw know what date the 70s poll starts and then I will put up the first post in the countdown the day after.
As for cynicism towards things, well I am naturally cynical, we are shaped by the world around us, Sam. But the idea of being thought egotistical is not a new one, and not one I like when it’s quite the opposite. It’s that that hurt, and the fact that this hs come up several times just makes me think, alright, I’ll give you what you want. More important than that, though, is that I need a break.
Wow. This has been a “thread” for the ages. First let me say that I yield to the decision made by the esteemed Pollmeister and withdraw my complaint concerning the inclusion of TV in future polls.
Second, let me clear up a misconception. I have no problems with your posts Allan. I have no business telling anyone what they write in a movie review especially on as knowledgeable as you. I am sure many people enjoy your reviews and if I was a fan of foreign cinema I would also.
Allan, to quote from “The Godfather”, “this is business not personal. “
PS – I especially like your “Guilty Pleasures” submissions. Afterall, that is what I consider the purpose of seeing films – enjoyment.
I know it’s not personal, Angelo, old boy, but me getting angry was last night was a symptom of increased frustration I’ve felt over the last weeks. I just need to nip it in the bud for a little break. I’ll be back when the 1970s poll starts…
I’m lucky enough with having lived with depression in myself and family since a very young age, I can recognise the first signs in me, and try to stop things before they explode. The break for a few days will do me good.
Bloody hell! I need a break and then someone says more guilty pleasures.
Death where is thy sting?
And Sam will have a new piece up in the next couple of days. That can stand to be up top for a few days, from what I hear of the film it merits it.
That is unless some smart alec keeps getting these damned Guess the Pics and necessitating a surplant.