by Sam Juliano
Federico Fellini’s beloved “autobiographical” carnival show, in which it’s main character, a successful film maker who escapes into childhood memories and sexual fantasies, only to realize that his own artistic future lies within his own experiences of life, finished first in the nearly two-month 60’s polling at WitD. The unexpected first-place showing of this supreme classic of world cinema marked the second time a foreign-language film ended up on top, following another Italian film, Vittorio DeSica’s Bicycle Thieves in the 40’s poll.
While Kevin J. Olson of Hugo Stiglitz Makes Movies was the only one of the 42 who cast ballots to place 8 1/2 in the #1 position, many others listed the film as their 2nd, 3rd and 4th choice, allowing it with the weighted tabulation system to outdistance Alfred Hitchcock’s seminal horror film Psycho, Ingmar Bergman’s Persona, Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey and Robert Bresson’s Au Hasard Balthazar. A total of 11 foreign-language films finished in the Top 25, informing this decade’s auturist leanings.
Some of cinema’s most unforgettable moments are to be found in Fellini’s masterpiece including the evocation of life in a religious college; the hero’s dream of a harem in which his wives serve his every wish; the fat prostitute dancing on the beach for some young boys; the people at the spa, and the ballet sequence near the end where a gigantic “spaceship ramp” that is intended in the film maker’s latest to transport the survivors of an atomic war to another planet. The performances by Marcello Mastroianni, Anouk Aimee, Claudia Cardinale and Sandra Milo remain among the most memorable in the history of the cinema, as is Gianni De Venanzo’s widescreen black and white cinematography, Pierro Gherardi’s art direction and Nino Rota’s score.
Two films directed by Alfred Hitchcock, Rear Window and Vertigo, had placed 1 and 2 in the 50’s poll, and the spectacularly-popular director, again came close to the top spot, with the high placement of his 1960 Psycho in the #2 position.
Four directors placed two films in the Top 25: Fellini, Stanley Kubrick, Ingmar Bergman and Robert Wise (who co-directed West Side Story and directed The Sound of Music alone). Again, WitD is eternally grateful to Voting Tabulator Extraordinaire Angelo A. D’Arminio Jr. for his exhaustive work in gathering together the ballots. The 60’s poll was particularly challenging.
Top 25 films (in order; with point totals)
1 8½ (Fellini) 409
2 Psycho (Hitchcock) 375
3 Persona (Bergman) 370
4 2001: A Space Odyssey (Kubrick) 319
5 Au Hasard Balthazar (Bresson) 306
6 West Side Story (Wise/Robins) 288
7 The Apartment (Wilder) 275
8 The Graduate (Nichols) 265
9 Contempt (Godard) 263
10 Bonnie and Clyde (Penn) 253
11 Lawrence of Arabia (Lean) 247
12 Once Upon A Time in the West (Leone) 242
13 Playtime (Tati) 227
14 Andrei Rublev (Tarkovsky) 224
15 Le Samourai (Melville) 224
16 Dr. Strangelove (Kubrick) 219
17 La Dolce Vita (Fellini) 194
18 Jules and Jim (Truffaut) 190
19 Mary Poppins (Stevenson) 175
20 My Night at Maud’s (Rohmer) 174
21 To Kill A Mockingbird (Mulligan) 171
22 My Fair Lady (Cukor) 165
23 Faces (Cassavettes) 160
24 The Sound of Music (Wise) 157
25 The Silence (Bergman) 154
Click on names for archives
Writers/Founders
I changed Sam’s wording slightly as he had the 2-5 as runners up.
Newsflash, Sammy, old boy…
runners up = second place, not the next however many your decide.
No, the term “runners-up” in the USA applies to ‘several’ positions under the top, not just one.
Anyway, the lay out does look great!
You guys have done another phenomenal job here, and with this poll, ballots were cast from around the world. You have much to be proud of.
Great new banner up top. Good list – it’s nice to see My Night at Maud’s make the final cut, though 2 of my 3 (I couldn’t rank beyond that) didn’t make the list, and Lawrence – my favorite of the decade – just barely missed the top ten.
Eagerly anticipating the 70s list…keep up the good work!
OK, I got busy and never actually submitted my poll, but my #1 movie was going to be 8 1/2, followed by Mary Poppins, Persona, Dr. Strangelove and The Apartment, plus many of the others that made the list, so I am quite pleased with this result. I noticed that 8 1/2 was placing on almost everyone’s poll, and often fairly high, so I was predicting it would finish first (easy to say now, I know, but I did think that from fairly early on).
8 1/2 may be my favorite movie, period. I can never quite make up my mind–rather Guido-ish of me, I suppose, lol.
Great list compiled by all involved!
Thanks for that Jenny! It’s great that you concur with the top choices (and several after that) and we will movie forward with the 70’s poll. I’ll contact you by e mail, and we’ll make preparations. As always I applaud your frantic viewings in the previous weeks, which you have gloriously elaborated on here and elsewhere.
Thanks very much Movie Man! I honestly was surprised LAWRENCE didn’t make the Top Ten. Thanks for your continuing support.
And Joe my friend, you have again hit the nail on the head.
I normally don’t comment on polls, but because Sam is such a good and respected Internet friend now, I will.
I find it very depressing that there is not a single female director (Vera Chytilová’s Daisies should be there) and that when the film is not canonical or by a canonical director, the choices are pure entertainment (Mary Poppins, yes I like it, too, but best of the 60s?). Where is all the great satire from Britain aside from Kubrick, the great films from Japan, the Czech New Wave?
I’m writing this because it’s time to stop thinking about the easy choices and start learning more about the rest of world cinema.
Indeed Marilyn, indeed. You couldn’t have made a better point. The great downside of these polls is always the voter who favors the popular, and isn’t sufficiently informed.
Allan’s countdown did acknowledge the Czech New Wave (THE CAT COMES BACK) and DAISIES was an honorable mention, and of course EROS PLUS MASSACRE was his #1.
But sadly none of those made this cut, which as you rightly point out will inevitably always favor the more popular choices. And yes, women directors are MIA here.
Still, with the limited parameters, I am buoyed by the unexpected fine showing of foreign-language cinema, to have added hope for the 70’s.
As always Marilyn, thanks for your thoughtful comment, my very good friend.
Hi! Sam Juliano, Allan, Angelo D’Armino and WitD readers…
…Congratulation! to the readers (all) who voted on the top 5 choices!….in the 1960 poll.
DeeDee 😉
Marilyn, I couldn’t agree with you more…that’s why my top 25 essays reflect more diverse taste. No one is more depressed with the inclusion of such pap as West Side Story, Mary Poppins, The Sound of Mucus and, heaven forbid, My Not Very Fair at All Lady. But I expect it, sadly.
I try to convince them, Marilyn, but it’s sometimes harder than trying to headbang a Rossini overture on a brick wall without needing paracetamol afterwards.
One small thing we’ll disagree on. Daisies is overrated, very much a film of its day, but Czech cinema in general – not the canonical new wave stuff like Menzel and Forman, but the REAL great stuff – Jakubisko, Jasny, even the old formalist Vlacil, are extraordinary.
One thing I can guarantee is that my 70s list will also open up eyes blinded by blinkered critical canons.
Yes, Sam’s hoping for the best attitude is always a victory for optimism over the reality of experience.
Remember there are a portion of voters here whose idea of foreign cinema is something made in the UK.
As for women directors, I admit I only had two in the top 100 – Loving Couples at 98, The House is Black at 23, but that’s not misogynist, Marilyn, merely that those were where I placed them.
I don’t think it’s giving too much away to say that there are 3 films by women in my top 50 of the 1970s.
alright Allan, let’s not be re-opening the argument on WEST SIDE STORY which as Stanley Kauffmann rightly claims is the “greatest musical FILM ever made.” We will argue till the end of time on that one.
I agree guys on the ‘pap’ as Allan puts it. oh well, I loathe all those films mentioned above. musicals and such aren’t really my bag, so I stay far away from the conversation usually. To each his or her own but I still understand the frustration.
I cannot wait for the seventies to start, any clue as to when it will? I think I may even like 70’s films more (or at least as much) then 60’s as a whole. I’ve already started my list, but it’s quite hard and watching lots of films to ‘bone up’. I must say your time lines are quite useful.
Jamie: Figure one more week and the thread for the seventies will up…….a week from Monday to be exact.
One thing I will say. For whatever criticism can be aimed at the Top 25 here, I don’t think anyone can take serious issue for the Top 5. Each of those is a masterpiece of cinema.
Our dear Dee Dee:
Thanks very much for your kind words as always, for your unstinting support throughout and for your own submitted list, which yielded picks that made the ultimate cut.
I don’t personally see any problem with the musical choices. “My Fair Lady,” “West Side Story” and “Mary Poppins” are excellent films. Their placement on this list is one that’s hard to dispute. Even “The Sound of Music” is a popular well-crafted choice that many have an enduring fondness for. The idea that ‘popular’ is inferior, is just as preposterous as the notion that a little-seen film must automatically be great. I am not saying “The Sound of Music” should be in the top 25, but the fact that it is doesn’t pose a problem for me, as the list has much diversity.
There are enough art house films on this list to validate it. You can’t please everyone. We don’t want to paint ourselves into a corner and come off as movie snobs.
Not hard to dispute for a cinema lover, Frank…but no-one voting for them is anything other than a popcorn muncher.
Not that I think the poll should change in any way. After all, we live in an age where talent(less) shows dominate TV and where everything is decided by public vote. The public are, and always will be, sheep.
OK, there’s where I disagree Allan. The same voter can place “8 1/2” and “Mary Poppins” on a top 25 of the 60’s, and that voter can be a serious cineaste. It comes down to taste at the end of the day. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong? Those ‘popcorn munching’ films you deride have a lot of support in intellectual circles too.
Maybe in the US, but not from any source I find worthwhile.
Anyway, enough from me, I’m supposed to be on holiday.
Well, you guys know my position. A list should reflect (and have room for) both the popular and the eclectic. As long as the film is a quality film, there shouldn’t be any problem.
I think it was Santayana who said that art is “anything that elicits an emotional response in the viewer or listener.”
This decision-making is not subject to constricting edicts.
congrats to all of you. It’s impossible to gage just how much was expended over two months here by way of blood, sweat and tears. And the end result is something to truly be proud of. Like any other poll, I agree with some of the choices, and disagree with others. But I can’t say that any single choice was unworthy.
I don’t think elitist film snobbery is what is going on here. After all not one of us has gripped about the inclusion of ‘The Graduate’, or ‘To Kill A Mockingbird’. Both films I like (more so the first one), but neither would probably be in my top 50 from the 60’s, but I see why people would want to put both in the top 25. A ‘Mary Poppins’ though would be like seeing a ‘The Notebook’ in the top 25 films of 2000’s in 50 years, to me anyway. I think we are talking about quality here. But as always with these sort of things quality many times also means taste. To each his own as I said, I mean who else put ‘Dillinger is Dead’ top 3 (or maybe 1) as I did?
Even saying that I still have no problem with the list, it features many populist picks which is, of course, going to happen when a democracy tabulation is done. Warts and All, this is a perfectly fine list, one that any film blog should be proud it’s followers voted for.
btw, Allan great rundown of ‘hidden czech gems’, two of my favorite films from that era (and place) are ‘Closely Movie Trains’ and ‘The Joke’, others can have their Forman… I’m wondering if you’ve seen Jakubisko’s ‘Bathory’ yet? I haven’t been able to find it, and it seems any North American DVD is in limbo. I was going to look to purchase a european version but I’ve heard there are no English Subtitles or dubs, which is further confusing as I heard it was supposed to be IN English!
I think it was Santayana who said that art is “anything that elicits an emotional response in the viewer or listener.”
Joe, I agree with that. Many just find it hard to believe that watching ‘Mary Poppins’ will elicit the same level of emotions as watching, say, ‘Shame’. Maybe so, but at some point if someone can argue it does we have to seriously question the palette, no? All foods will fill you up, but some certainly taste better no?
That also says nothing about if I watch ‘Mary Poppins’ and the immediate emotional response it provokes is outright disdain. Thats probably not a good thing right?
Jamie, as usual you have provided exceedingly impressive perspective here.
I will say this about MARY POPPINS. I did not include it in my own Top 25, but truth be said it was one of the greatest all-time Disney features, it showcased what is generally acknowledge in musical circles as a “perfect” score by the Sherman brothers (the recent documentary on the boys presented some interesting corroboration of this conviction) but regardless of our mutual love for Bergman, Fellini, Kubrick, Bresson, Czech cinema, et al, it doesn’t (at least for me) diminished the cinematic excellence of the this film, at least as a musical genre piece.
But as you embrace the specifications of democracy I think you accept the divergence of opinion.
Jamie: We’ve had a change of plans. The 70’s poll will launch on Wednesday morning. I will post my own list sometime Wednesday afternoon, so as to allow others like yourself and Ed Howard to post before me. I don’t want to always hog the right to the first submission! LOL!!!
The only DVD of Bathory is in Czech with no subs, sadly, so we’ll have to wait for a UK or US release.
Sam will not be posting his list on Wednesday morning as his habit of changing his mind 776 times before the end is excruciatingly banal. Make a list and stick to it!!!
If you post Wednesday, Sam, no CHANGES. Not ONE.
Look Allan, I haven’t watched Rivette’s OUT 1, and I reserve the right to add it if I feel it is warranted to do so. I made very few changes to my 60’s list only posted, and I will be make very few changes to my 70’s list. But if I have to make a few, so be it. I will attempt on the initial posting to “nail it.” That’s all I can say. The list will always be there on the 70’s post to check.
“If you post Wednesday, Sam, no CHANGES. Not ONE.”
Let me guess, you are a big fan of that fine gentleman of Austrian-birth, whose father’s name was Alois.
No, but I’m not a fan of dithering idiots who can’t make their mind up, who thinks posting first is important enough to take looking an idiot for changing your mind.
It’s the cheat in you, you’re a natural cheat…
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Woo Hoo! I’m glad the film sits atop this fine list. Thanks for authoring such a wonderful exercise. I can’t wait for the 70’s as I’m sure the lists will be even more diverse than they were here with the 60’s.
Thanks for the shout out, too. Since I’ve made it so vocal that this is my favorite film the pressure is on next May when I submit an essay on 8 1/2 for TOERIFC. Uh oh, haha. We’ll see how that goes…
So the fight continues, the snobs in one corner and the rest in the other.
All very amusing, but the snobs do not have a monopoly on ‘quality’. In the early days of the cinema, it was the magic lantern. A place of wonder and surprise. Who are Allan and co to play God and tell others their cinematic experience is inferior to theirs!
I too am surprised to see that Fellini top the list. Not that I have a problem with it. I just didn’t expect to see it beat some of those other films.
I just want to thank you guys for the big effort in doing this task. Whether one agrees with the choices in the list or not I do think it has been an amazing effort. Looking foreward to the 70’s
Thanks very much for that Kevin! And you deserve the shout-out as you have been this great classic film’s most vocal fan for so long! I am sure your review will be spectacular.
Tony, you are truly back here with your REAL NAME!!!!! Well, all I can say is that you are right. There is absolutely no way to argue against quality. I honestly believe that in any art form ‘familiarity breads contempt’ meaning that what was once acknowledged as a masterwork, is now (as a result of massive composure) now regarded as second-rate. This is false assertion. For example, some will groan as the choice of PSYCHO or even 2001, but they are not less now because they are popular.
Kaleem: It was indeed an unexpected result, but a most welcome one.
John: Thanks very much for the compliment, and likewise we look forward to your participation in the 70’s poll, while thanking you for your 60’s list.
I’m not much for polls, but man, can’t think of many (if any) opening sequences that can compare with those in 8 1/2 and La Dolce Vita. In the case of the latter, the film was not the equal of the opening scene*, but 8 1/2 is simply superb — it is perhaps fitting that this compelling representation of the magic, the zaniness, and the frustration of cinema, should win the top spot on a site called Wonders in the Dark.
*[Nietzsche might have said “God is dead”, but Fellini shows us the visuals accompanying the funeral: his deity flying over Rome is a mere statue, serving only to inconvenience sunbathers, who hearken to the more secular cults of celebrity, social position, looks, etc.]
An acute observation Qalander. While heavily symbolic the opening scene in La Dolce Vita is inspiring, but the cinematic cavalcade that marks the climax of 8½ is exhilarating.
Good Morning! Sam Juliano, Allan Fish and WitD readers,
Wow!….I started to leave…because I thought that I was at the wrong blogsite.
All I can say is what a really “nice” upgrade!….even though I liked the other template too!
DeeDee 😉
Lovely observations indeed Qalandar! You know your Fellini well.
Dee Dee, I’m just surprised as you are. Apparently Tony and Allan joined forces last night while I was out with Lucille and Broadway watching a play revival of MARY STUART, they rehauled the entire site.
It does look great!!!!
Tony’s work, not mine. Credit where it’s due. I just followed detailed instructions, after a couple of palavas.
Agreed Qalandar. Fellini has two of the greatest opening sequences in film history with those two movies.
The new look is great by the way!
Tony: “cinematic cavalcade” is a great way to characterize that sequence, a fitting tribute to “cinema” (perhaps I should say “Cinema”)…
The only suggestion I’d make is to work around with the recent comments and recent posts formatting a bit. it’s a bit hard to mark off one from the other at this point. But the layout otherwise is fine.
Once again — despite my best efforts — I neglected to join in the fun and submit my own list. Fortunately, though, my choice for #1 (or #2) would’ve been 8-1/2. (Like Sam, I have trouble deciding, but that seems natural when one is comparing apples and oranges, isn’t it? Creating lists is one way to ensure that the arguments continue!)
I’m glad to see The Graduate on the list — to my way of thinking, this film is not just popular but competitive as a work of quality.
Thanks to those who set up the polling and those who took the time to vote.
I am, as Kaleem knows, a sucker for films “about” films, and think it’s really interesting to juxtapose 8 1/2 with Satyajit Ray’s “Nayak.” Perhaps it is testimony to the difference in cinematic cultures that the former is a film that sees cinema as a director’s medium, whereas the latter is focused on the notion of “stardom”… there’s a superb sequence in “Nayak” where the star (played by Uttam Kumar) is talking to a young (and inexperienced) female journalist in a railway dining car; the train has stopped at a station, and there is a crowd with its faces pressed against the window, clearly unnerving the journalist (played by Sharmila Tagore); Ray even adds an inspired touch, the ceaseless tapping of the fans’ fingers on the window, that not only affects Tagore’s character, but also gets under the audience’s skin, preventing the scene from being a “comfortable” one for it. Through it all, Kumar’s character feigns indifference, the sort of Olympian reserve that, one imagines, might well add to his fans’ yearning; and is amused at his female companion’s discomfort. Many gazes in play here: the film-goer watching the crowd at the train station; the latter itself clamoring for the star’s attention; and the celebrity, enjoying the attention, watching the journalist’s discomfort; and the journalist herself, hitherto perhaps a bit smug at the shallowness of the celebrity’s life, embarrassed by the attention, and feeling the weight the star bears every public moment…
Great job on the poll, can’t wait to do the 70s as well.
Allan Fish said, “Tony’s work, not mine. Credit where it’s due. I just followed detailed instructions, after a couple of palavas.”
Oh!….Well, nice job Tony, (and “big” Al (lan) for following instruction….“beautifully” Oops!…If I might add or to a “T”….LOL!
DeeDee ;-D
I like popular films, and believe the best of them deserve to be in a top list. Dick van Dyke’s execrable performance in Mary Poppins alone, however, would disqualify it. In my opinion, either Singin’ in the Rain or The Band Wagon are the best musicals on film, and West Side Story is one of the best marriages of dance and camera around, a very difficult feat, IMO.
As for Daisies, I don’t agree that it was of its time alone. Its POV is the essence of the feminine to me, and I related to it deeply. While you can argue that its experiments with color and cutting were very pop-ish and 60s, its overall feeling transcends those devices.
I can forgive you Daisies, Marilyn, it’s at least original, and I admit probably a film better responded to by women (and let’s face it, I quickly seized on the Region 2 second Run remaster this week). Even WSS, which I argue with Sam, all the time about, but which I will admit is worth The Sound of Music and My Fair Lady combined. Though frankly, no stage musical adaptation – Cabaret and The Pajama Game are the best – come close to the two Freed musicals you mention.
There’s noting wrong with popular films if they’re any good, it’s when they’re standard or worse it gets “head in the hands” dispiriting. But I am the ultimate cynic. Where most people when asked what they’d like to be run over by if they had to be would pick an ambulance, I’d say a hearse – cut out the middle man.
But is it not also possible for cult favorites or the occasional work of an “overlooked” director to reach the level of “head in the hands” dispiriting to someone? I don’t see how the fact that a film is popular should have any bearing on a determination like that.
Not to me, Dave, old boy. But then again, I really am not bothered about the results of these polls as they always trot the same things out time and time again. I have my list to fall back on and that’s the only one that interests me.
Interesting, though, that Fellini’s film comes out top in the very year of Rob Marshall’s reworking of the film with Daniel Day-Lewis (Nine – a little bit more than 8½ I guess the injoke).
It certainly isn’t Marshall’s 9th film as it was Fellini’s 8½th.
“I really am not bothered about the results of these polls as they always trot the same things out time and time again. I have my list to fall back on and that’s the only one that interests me.”
Truer words were never spoken, Allan! Still, the polls are still always fun/interesting for me to be a part of. It’s always interesting to see the personal tastes of the various readers here.
Allan’s cynicism is no damper on my own enthusiasm Dave, you can be sure of that. And “what” names pray tell, my dear colleague and co-conspirator, are ‘always being brought out?’ Shall we also take issue with those who ALWAYS bring out the same time-worn names when we speak about classical music? Are we tired of hearing Bach, Beethoven, Mozart and Wagner?
Shall we reprimand those one-track jaded thinkers who bore us to tears by saying that HAMLET, KING LEAR, OEDIPUS THE KING, A DOLL’S HOUSE and A STREETCAR NAMED DESIRE are great plays?
Shall we tar and feather other fans of great art for pompously naming MONA LISA, THE SCREAM and STARRY NIGHT as great paintings.
Of course you will see 8 1/2, PSYCHO, PERSONA, 2001 and BALTHAZAR pop on on true film lover’s lists. Why? Because they are film masterpieces!
As I’m sure you’ve noticed by my choices of favorite films, Sam, that I don’t shy away from professing my love for the “old warhorses.” I was agreeing with Allan’s sentiments that ultimately what matters is your own list, not necessarily the section about not being interested in other lists. I’m always interested and make no apologies for being in love with the populist tripe!
The best thing for me is that Allan is pointing me toward films and areas of of film that I have virtually no experience with, which is definitely a great thing.
For the record I can take zero credit (but all the infamy) for the new look. I just waded through some templates and chose one. The full credit for the new look must be given to the author of the WordPress template, Sadish, whose link is at the bottom of each page.
I then just dragged some widgets with my mouse to and from the sidebar. I thought a news message at the top would be handy and adding some graphics would be nice.
Allan did the grunt work (his ‘snob’ penance a la Gran Torino).
The issue for some with the readability of links in the sidebar can be sorted, but will need to be done carefully so as not to compromise the theme’s aesthetic and because it involves changes to the CSS style sheet (geek speak…).
Dave: You are a true gentleman and a scholar, and I understand what you are saying completely there! With you, like me, anythings goes, and that’s the way it should be!
Tony: You are an eternally modest man, but I’ve been informed by our friend in Blarney just what you have done, which is for the umteenth time made great improvements to this site! I’ll send Sadish a commission! LOL!!!
Marilyn: Thanks very much for those clarifications, but I know you embrace the popular too (your love of CHICAGO, which I share is a prime example) but your TASTE has , shall we say, evolved into something that doesn’t blindly embrace work that hasn’gt any lasting value, or doesn’t go beyond skimming the surface. Thanks again.
Qalandar: Again, that tie-in to NAYAK is superb. I really need to see this film ASAP.
Dee Dee: Thanks as always for your moral support and enthusiasm, which has more staying power here than the site itself. You are one of the most beautiful human beings I have ever had the pleasure of meeting in my life.
Sam, Nayak as you know is part of that Artificial Eye set on Ray (vol 1).
I’ll pitch in for Daisies too. Clearly, I’m not relating to the “feminine” aspect but just the sheer, overwhelming zest of the friggin’ thing. I find it exhilirating.
As for that tag, it goes for Tony too (and, as said before, anyone reading this), as I see his noir site’s still defunct. That said, either or a noir top ten or a more general top ten would be much appreciated.
Movie Man:
I can’t speak for Tony (although he may partake in this) but I will definitely be posting my book list at The Dancing Image very soon. I’ll speak to Allan tomorrow about posting his own list too. He’s a huge fan of both the Halliwell, the Time Out Guide and Thomson’s dictionary volume.
Thanks very much for everything!
Pierre:
Thanks very much for that much-appreciated feedback, and I know just how much you venerate Fellini and 8 1/2, although I know you seem to give a narrow edge to LA DOLCE VITA as well as LA STRADA and THE WHITE SHIEK!
I agree with you that THE GRADUATE is a seminal American film.
Thanks for the compliments on the polling.
Kaleem: I never realized that NAYEK was on that volume! Thanks for the reminder!
I only told him three hundred times to watch Nayak from that Ray volume and now he never realised. Hopeless, utterly, mind-shatteringly, ball-crunchingly hopeless. It was on his backlog for a year before I took it off as he was avoiding it like a man ringing a small bell dressed in a brown hooded cloak.
Your memory sets low standards and then fails to live up to them. Guy Pearce in Memento could remember something for longer.
There would need to be 1,860 hours in a day to complete the tasks that you put forth for me, and even them I wouldn’t be able to negotiate it.
Nice list. Your readers have impeccable taste.
Sam — just to clarify for the record, I prefer 8-1/2 to those films by Federico that you mentioned, but only by a hair when compared with La Strada, which I view as less complex and therefore more accessible. The White Sheik holds a soft spot in my heart because of its amusing freshness.
And speaking of cult films — my only regret is that I didn’t get to vote for George Axelrod’s Lord Love a Duck, my sentimental — if rather cheaply made — favorite.
Nah, 1860 hours, think of all the blogging and procrastinating you could do in that time…sycophantic delirium.
Blogging is an integral part of managing a site. I accept my role in this regard, and am enriched by the sharing and cross-discussions at many sites, whose proprietors come here often and graciously. To reiterate what I’ve pointed out on previous threads, my viewing and listening schedule weekly is way beyond what anyone in my position should rightly and sanely take on.
Thanks for that clarification Pierre. I must admit that I’ve come across few Fellini admirers (and professional critics)who have relegated 8 1/2 to a runner-up position. I have always favored I VITTELONI myself, but I know I’m in the minority there. I know of your great fondness for THE WHITE SHIEK too.
LORD LOVE A DUCK? Now there’s a real cult item!
Rick: Thanks very much for that. The polls do attract a large contingent of serious lovers of cinema, and for that I am grateful.
Actually 8 1/2 is not among my very favorite Fellini works either even if I would hardly argue this as a critical matter. My absolute favorite is Nights of Cabiria but I also adore La Strada, La Dolce Vita and perhaps a little below this I Vitelloni. Among his later works I have a great weakness for Casanova but also Roma. But I don’t really dislike any Fellini film.
Seeing the names of these Fellini films once again reminds me how difficult it is to choose one’s favorite — it’s like the scene in Lord Love a Duck when Tuesday Weld’s father tries to choose which cashmere sweaters to buy for her: “Let’s get ALL of ’em!”
Pierre: Your wry humor is always to be relied on, especially when it informs such a difficult decision. It appears that LA DOLCE VITA, LA STRADA, JULIET OF THE SPIRITS, I VITTELINI NIGHTS OF CABIRIA, and even AMARCORD has just about as much support in the intellectual circles, but I guess 8 1/2 holds viewer in “awe” more than the others because of its sustained vaunted reputation among cineasts. But like you say with that apt reference from LORD LOVE A DUCK (I must look at this film ASAP) you can’t go wrong with any.
Kaleem: As you know I have pretty much agreed with your position, even if in recent years I have moved more towards I VITELLONI. It’s a situation where you are always playing musical chairs, and there is a core of masterpieces , each of which has its adherents in intellectual circles. When you say you “don’t dislike any Fellini film” you pretty much sum it up perfectly.
What happened to the gravatars?
Sam I am always very impressed with directors who are very good even in their average films. And especially so when these directors are also very prolific. Bergman is a great example of such a director. Some of the great Japanese directors are equally good ones if not better. Of course there are others as well.
Pierre: I too have a weakness for the white Sheik. It’s a work in a minor key but it’s perfect at what it does. I think (and this is the problem with all lists and the surrounding paraphernalia) that it is hard to box works into definitive categories. The obsession with the ‘masterpiece’ often leads one to a framework which is needlessly ‘limiting’. One is often led down a path where what matters more than the oeuvre of a director is really a list of masterpieces or just ‘excellent’ films (and so forth) strung together in a sort of ‘museum effect across histories and cultures and genres. The current list has spawned some debate as have previous polls. This is however unavoidable. For some of the reasons I’ve been discussing. A poll does not lead to a ‘truth’ about cinematic excellence almost all of the time, irrespective of who’s voting. The sheer idea of there being a topmost film or the 14th best film of all time or what have you is a little absurd. We all succumb to such impulses from time to time. Admittedly it’s fun to do so! But it’s just that. A poll always has an ‘agenda’ consciously or otherwise. Getting back to the White Sheik this is the sort of seemingly lesser work that is often ignored when one is only interested in obvious canonical films like 8 1/2 or whatever. Art or even serious entertainment is much more than the ‘canonical’ (leaving aside the problems involved with such a definition). I have countless times discovered ‘minor’ works (defined as such) to be ‘major’. I am not alone in this. Depending on the age one’s in works get re-evaluated all the time. The classics of one era are often not those of another one. But I ‘discover’ the supposedly minor, I am surprised at how underrated the work in question is and than I realize I ought not to be surprised. Because I have somehow just imbibed the ‘conventional’ in some sense without being alert enough to it. So why is it obvious that 8 1/2 is possibly the best Fellini out there? Why can it not be (as indeed some important critical studies have suggested in recent years) that later Fellini is equally important in many ways but it does not seem so because we always approach it through the prism of the earlier periods? One could multiply the examples in this sense but essentially I am glad you brought up the White Sheik. An oeuvre is richer for the ‘lesser’ works or the partial failures and so forth, not poorer. It would be an impoverished art that consisted only of masterpieces. Such an art does not exist but our obsession (and we’re all guilty of this) with polls and lists amounts to approaching art in this way.
Good points, Kaleem. It’s often a special treat to see the earlier works of an auteur. There’s nothing more refreshing than seeing all that talent and creativity burst forth before it becomes “too spoiled” or “too professional” or “too self-conscious” or “too artificed.” The White Sheik is a great example of what I’m talking about; the scene at the riverbank — where the main female character takes a leap — is but one example.
And, as with others here, “I Vittellonni” holds a special place in my heart.
Kaleem, when Tony rehauled the look of the site, he found it was very difficult to hold on to the gravatars. But they do still appear at other sites when we make submisions. Further investigation of course could reinstate them, but we’ll see down the road. Thanks for noticing.
Kaleem and Pierre: Thanks very much for bringing this thread to life in a big (and most appropriate way) with the Fellini discourse! Truly fascinating stuff, that really makes you want to revist these works as soon as possible. The point about the work of great auteurs being eternally enrapturing is indeed one that could be posed for Fellini, Bergman, Bresson, Kurosawa, Ozu, Ford, Lubitsch, et al, but the case here for the Italian is especially persuasive. Pierre’s beloved WHITE SHIEK is such as example, although that lovely work is informed by far more than nostalgia. (as Pierre has always argued effectively) Is 8 1/2 Fellini’s greatest film? Well as both of you fine gentlemen have proposed, there is no satisfactory answer. Whether it’s in large measure because “polls have agendas” as Kaleem suggests, or because it’s the film that always attracted the most fervant intellectual adherents it’s difficult to say. But it’s circumspect to speculate that it’s film that has made an all-encompassing impression on so many.
Again, you people have really raised the bar here, but it’s hardly surprising.
Sam, the gravatars appeared here even after the new theme was chosen. I wonder if these have been accidentally disabled. They appear on other sites because once you sign in with gravatar any time you go to other blogs that are also linked with gravatar and use the very same address the gravatars automatically show up.
“There’s nothing more refreshing than seeing all that talent and creativity burst forth before it becomes “too spoiled” or “too professional” or “too self-conscious” or “too artificed.”’
Well stated once again. The difference between the artist and the entertainer is precisely this. With the former even the failures ‘mean’ something. It might indicate a certain stage in the artist’s evolution, it might reveal (as you’ve stated) a greater spontaneity, it might be an ‘early’ phase that leads to more mature work, alternatively it could also be a different (earlier or later) stage where the artist faces a kind of ‘deadlock’ in his or her creative process. But all of this is significant because ‘art’ is essentially being attempted.
Thanks very much for your comments Sam..
Kaleem, the gravatars are out for reasons of layout and aesthetics. Few commentators use them and the defaults are ugly. Let’s adapt and move on.
Regarding the debate on an auteur’s earlier versus mature work. An important consideration is a film-maker’s artistic concerns as he grows older and after a fuller life-time of experience – aging, the loss of ideals and the dreams and aspirations of youth, failures, and impending mortality. So in a way it is limiting to judge later films against earlier efforts on aesthetics alone. For me, the overriding consideration is what a film is saying. Some artistic failures are interesting for what was trying to be conveyed and in a broader sense may be more important than the successes.
In Fellini’s case, Armarcord, seen by many as a lesser work, is a deeply personal rumination on his childhood, burgeoning sexuality, and death, but is also deeply imbued with an irreverent absurdity that is a homage to the laughter and beauty of life. It is worth noting in this context that Fellini kept a sketchbook, where each day he would in words and sketches record his dreams. Viewed through this prism, Fellini’s later films have an added layer of meaning.
Wow, an extraordinary evaluation here Tony! Beautifully written and posed!! And that sketchbook bit really informed the later stuff.
Tony: Though your position is well stated I would disagree with it to the extent that you imply a certain ‘vision’ in life occurring with age. This certainly has been an important trope in art. I myself am partial to late age or twilight works. But I cannot argue this as a critical matter nor do I think there is such conclusive evidence in art. It is more often the case in fact that the truly ‘mature’ works of an artist, also those that end up being defined as the greatest, do not necessarily coincide with ‘age’. So a writer might write enormous works in his late 40s but find himself totally unable to do so in his 60s. Also I am unsure if ‘de-idealization’ can always be correlated with age. To get back to the specific White Sheik argument I believe that Fellini’s greatest works actually do not make this one redundant. Amarcord incidentally is lionized by most Western critics, I am personally not crazy about it but I can certainly see where you are coming from on this. I also agree completely that a work ought not to be judged on aesthetics alone and in fact that is not at all what I am saying above. To begin with I find such a split between form and meaning incomprehensible. The White Sheik is not a profound film but it does to my mind say something important. It is a fine essay on the nature of celebrity, the bridge that the celebrity forms between the ‘real’ lived world and the imagined ‘represented’ one. But the traffic also flows in the other direction here. Both protagonists discover something in this film. It is as I suggested earlier a minor work. For one reason it doesn’t attempt as much as a La Dolce Vita or some of Fellini’s other works. But it succeeds brilliantly at what it does attempt.
Tony, incidentally I will follow your advice and not let the issue of disappearing gravatars scar me for life!
Kaleem, I said nothing about The Sheik, and in any event our views are not particularly divergent. All I would is that I Vitteloni, for example, is informed by a younger consciousness than the one that conceived Amarcord (which in Fellini’s regional dialect means “I remember”).
Kaleem, I said nothing about The Sheik, and in any event our views are not particularly divergent. All I would say is that I Vitteloni, for example, is informed by a younger consciousness than the one that conceived Amarcord (which in Fellini’s regional dialect means “I remember”).
PS Kaleem: I am certain the gravatars appreciate your loyalty, and that each has a pixel etched with your memory – alongside the one dedicated to Longfellow Deeds.
What Tony and Kaleem have said here somehow remind me of Vicky Christina Barcelona, a film I consider to be a mature work by a mature director but also one that doesn’t seem to be bogged down by the kinks in dreams and ideals that sometimes comes with the aging process. To me, this film is a good example of depth that’s deceptively cloaked in lightness.
Pierre: That Woody Allen is a perfect example in fact, even if I myself have never been a major fan. But over the past year, you have contributed so much to the understanding of this particular film, that I feel a re-viewing is in order. But for the purposes of this discourse, yes I completely agree.
Pierre: I’m a great fan of Vicky Christina Barcelona!
Tony: I know you didn’t mention the White Sheik. The point however remains the same. That I Vitelloni is the work of a younger guy compared to Amarcord is of course true. The point I’m trying to make is that this in itself doesn’t make the latter better than the former.
Fellini’s Casanova (and this is relevant to the discussion) is in my view a great subversion of the idea of aging in its ‘romantic’ form. A film not about nostalgia or disappointment or life’s end but about the ‘life’ that the ‘fictive’ can keep providing. The closing moment of the work with Casanova dancing with a life-sized doll is nonetheless moving but also a note of prophecy in the film. Of course there is also the obvious allusion to Metropolis. Fellini’s reaching his career’s end as is cinema in a larger sense (at the hands of TV as Fellini would have it elsewhere). Much like Casanova cinema will have been the exemplary machine of ‘desire’ or even the manufacture of desire. The technological overtakes cinema and Casanova’s only refuge is the mechanical..
I have mentioned And the Ship Sails On earlier but this Fellini also offers a ‘history’ of the medium. The opening ‘silent’ portions are quite brilliant and eventually this settles down into a ‘Ship of Fools’ scenario though always rendered in inimitable Fellini style. Mann wrote the European epitaph almost a century ago in the Magic Mountain (one of my very favorite works incidentally.. the idea of being isolated on a mountaintop with others in a ‘concert of Europe’ with everyone in various stages of consumption seems to me a rather cheerful idea at times but then this is not the only way in which I would seem to be Antonioni’s ideal viewer) and Fellini provides a mock version of the ‘post-aftermath’! And the rhino here is a great touch as well, somewhat reminiscent of the Ionesco play (Rhinoceros).
I hated Au Hasard Balthazar the first time I saw it. The awful blank acting and the unknowable and alien motivations of the characters threw me off. However, it pulled me back in. Its images are so powerful (it has a deep surface) that they build to something quite extraordinary. It’s other-worldly detachment seems to communicate more of the emotional truth of its characters than almost any film I’ve seen.
Otto e Mezzo was just a parade of silly sequences adding up to nothing. It’s full of ‘look at my imagination’ moments. Yes, you have an imagination but you don’t know what to do with it.
My list:
1 Au Hasard Balthazar
2 Playtime
3 Woman of the Dunes
4 The Birds
5 Teen Kanya
6 The Leopard
7 Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
No mention for Vivre Sa Vie? One of Godard’s best and almost entirely devoid of tomfoolery.
Where is the love for The Great Escape?
The absence of Antonioni is a major omission. It’s good to see Bergman making a comeback with the sublime “Persona,” and “8-1/2” is bellisima, a great work of baroque art and often funny as hell.