by Sam Juliano
I would like to announce to all site readers that the sparring over the Greatest Science Fiction Films Countdown will not impact the fact that it will be happening in 2016. The exact time it will officially launch is still undecided as are the specifications, and scene-specific involvement, but if anything was clear from all the dialogue in public and in private there are many interested parties, who want very much for the project to move forward. I was frankly surprised but delighted that this particular genre has the kind of support it does. Our excellent friend the prolific writer John Grant posted a fantastic comment on this week’s MMD that opens up another priceless avenue of research for aficionados:
I would very much like it if the SF Countdown went ahead, not only because in my humble way I’d like to contribute, having written quite a lot on f/sf movies for both David Pringle’s wildly misnomered Ultimate Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (I did the entirety of the cinema section) and my/John Clute’s The Encyclopedia of Fantasy (similarly), but because, in the event, I’d like to clue the folks at the gargantumassive online Encyclopedia of Science Fiction edition #3 into the countdown. (I devoted ~4 years of my life to the monumental 2nd edition, the last to appear in print.) I’m sure many of those associated with the SFE would be interested in the hypothetical WitD Countdown.
In case I’ve screwed up that link, as I so often do, here it is again, if I have: http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/
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Writers/Founders
I’m very happy to hear this news Sam. Count me in as one who finds this genre as one full of possibilities and interpretation.
Thanks much Frank.
So are the dramatics over? I mean, I definitely would like to weigh in on the next genre, and would like others to do so, as well. But I DO think the results should be kept secret. That would be so much more fun. Maybe the most reliable writers could get assigned four or five films from their own list to write about, without knowing their placement on the final list. So far as things being surprising…well, why place something on a “BEST OF” list ONLY because it’s a surprising choice; it should be a sensible choice as well, and sometimes that means it’s one that’s expected. I don’t wanna see a SF countdown with MAROONED at the top of the list, even if it IS passionately defended. I mean, that would be a surprise, but not a pleasant one.
Dean, a firm decision has been reached to keep the results secret. Absolutely. I saw that as the sole flaw of the existing system. Still it will be tricky to institute it, but quite doable. The way you pose it is precisely what I was thinking. As to MAROONED or any other nonsense making the top spot, as you can see from previous countdowns there are no such instances of terrible taste, not when you have the likes of yourself, Duane Porter, Judy Geater, Jim Clark, Mark Smith, Pat Perry, Jon Warner, Aaron West, John Grant, Marilyn Ferdinand, Jamie Grijalba, Robert Tower, Maurizio Roca, John Greco, Sachin Gandhi, Lee Price, Brian Wilson, Anu, Pedro Silva, Richard Finch, Dennis Polifroni, and other intelligent film lovers casting ballots. We’ve never had any aberrations of that kind. Ha!
You mean it’d be a waste of time for me to nominate Abraxas: Guardian of the Universe for the #1 spot?
hahahaha John! How about this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Outer_Space
I know that movie well, Sam. Actually, it’d be quite fun to do a parallel countdown — a sort of countfurtherandfurtherdown — of completely bloody awful sf movies.
Me, myself, I’d be voting for THE INCREDIBLE MELTING MAN.
Great choice there Dean!! Ha!
John, yet another terrific idea!! 🙂
Couldn’t be more thrilled to hear this will happen, and I’ll eagerly await the results .. through whatever methods it takes to get there. You guys have months to figure out what is best.
Thanks so much Aaron for your spirited support and kind words, not to mention your stellar writing for the Childhood/Adolescent countdown! Yes we do have months and I am not attempting to put anything in stone. No matter what ultimately happens I am confident this will turn out to be another glorious venture. Thank you my friend!
Yes – this is good news. Whatever method used, I am sure it will come out all right. I think I might be the only one here who doesn’t care about keeping the final results secret – I think the list making part of the exercise has its pleasures and values, and they are different from the pleasures and values of the essays. I’m not sure the essays would be less engaging if they were presented alphabetically or chronologically. I do like the voting, making and reading lists, compiling them, comparing them, etc. – arguing about genres – all that stuff is good, but it seems to occur apart from the actual essays. I do hope you can find a way to do that stuff in public, though – like I said under the other post, there’s a lot of conversation there that might belong in the comments section.
That might just be me though. I do find that when the essays start, I don’t pay much attention to where they finished on the list. Maybe not knowing the list would change that – I don’t know. I do think when the writers know the order, but don’t want to reveal it, it takes out all reference to any film’s position. I was reading a music list somewhere this week, that had a line in all the entries – “why this band isn’t higher” – that kind of thing tends to remind you of the countdown, and the choices being made. Though again – I don’t know if that would make the essays better or not. Might make the arguments about the list as a whole more lively, but the essays seem to work pretty well on their own.
I think I might be the only one here who doesn’t care about keeping the final results secret
Not the only one: I’m with you on this. It really doesn’t bother me to know in advance the order of play. My own beef, as may have become obvious, is that there ought to be a sort of “egregious omissions” clause when the community considers movies that should have made the cut but somehow didn’t — that “Oops, where’s Blade Runner?” moment.
Thanks for the ever-thoughtful comments Steve and John! As I just mentioned to others I too don’t see the secrecy element as a deal breaker. It all depends are what you are going for with these countdowns. We didn’t have secrecy for the last five yet they were monster hits regardless. The trade off for that inimitable suspense was that we were able to nurture the stupendous essays and comment sections to die for, especially in the musical and comedy countdowns. Still, there should be a way to have our cake and eat it, and I foresee a system that will allow for it.
I don’t really have a major opinion either way. I joined this site in the midst of Maurizio’s Noir countdown, which was his alone, and I found it rather engrossing. The last few countdowns I have been part of in various ways and have enjoyed that as well. I can go either way. However, part of me likes the idea of folks who are likely more exposed to the variety of Sci-fi films would be best able to curate that list. Sci-fi not being my particular area of expertise, I would say my list wouldn’t add much to it beyond the usual. I’m actually looking forward to picking up more films to see from this countdown.
Jon, I completely agree that what Maurizio did with that Noir Countdown was a remarkable achievement. The very fact that he prepared and posted reviews every single day for that long time window is mind-boggling and his “reputation” as a writer and cinema adherent needs no further showcasing.
Though I will hold out a while longer to see if the original plans can go forward, I have been given promises behind the scenes that they will NOT. I don’t care to get into the specifics of the drama at the site, but like the parties involved I personally am sick of it all. I stated many times I wanted the change, but it didnt matter after I (with very good reason) defended the arbitrary charges aimed at lessening the previous countdown and the upfront implication that rule changes for the Science-Fiction Countdown were not a sign of permanence for future countdowns. These clear stipulations were seen as deliberate undermining by a chosen few. Still I will wait.
However if things remain as they are I will move forward, and in all probability I foresee the same open vote. I will work hard at that time to bring in the “rarities” that the other group felt would make this countdown exclusive, and as always I have confidence in the talented group at the site.
In summation: I’d love to see the originals plans with the four-person group in voting stance, but it this does not happen I will move forward with Plan B. Thanks you as always my friend.
However, part of me likes the idea of folks who are likely more exposed to the variety of Sci-fi films would be best able to curate that list. Sci-fi not being my particular area of expertise, I would say my list wouldn’t add much to it beyond the usual. I’m actually looking forward to picking up more films to see from this countdown.
This was the whole point Jon, (or at least 85%) and sadly you’re the only one—as of yet—humble enough to admit this about yourself. Oh well.
Happy Sunday everyone. The final day before we all sing like Elvis Costello, “welcome to the working week…” track 1, side 1, album 1. He had it clued in from the start.
Jon, I do like Jamie applaud you for being humble, but you do sell yourself short. As you well know in the prep stage of each countdown I send out lists and copies of films to many of the voters by mail and on line.
When you said here that you like the idea of going with people who are likely to be more exposed, you certainly could not necessarily mean that Allan Fish, Sam Juliano, Jamie Uhler and Maurizio Roca are definitively the FOUR who would be more exposed. Sure this was Jamie’s idea and sure Jamie was already compiling lists, and sure Jamie had some big plans to move forward. Allan’s knowledge of film is impeccable in ANY genre. I grew up watching tons of science fiction, and carried this passion to the current day, much the same for Maurizio. But really who’s to say WE should be the four?
John Grant (realthog), a superlative and prolific writer of over 40 books, and a treasured commentator at this site penned a massive encyclopedia of science fiction films. Wouldn’t you think HE should be on such a committee? Knowing John as I do he is also game to receive screeners, lists and the like to ensure there is nothing that escaped him. But there are a number of others here who would be mighty eligible.
The bottom line is that I endorsed the plans presented to me, and stood by them. I wasn’t entirely convinced that we four were the definitive answer but I saw great enthusiasm was in the air. Assuming the two members who resigned do not return you can be rest assured I will conduct plenty of research to make sure that no vital rarities are unexplored.
John Grant (realthog), a superlative and prolific writer of over 40 books, and a treasured ommentator at this site penned a massive encyclopedia of science fiction films.
Please, Sam, a couple of corrections. On the plus side, it’s over 70 books, rather than over 40. On the minus side, far more importantly, only a few of those have been about the movies and there’s been no “massive encyclopedia of science fiction films” among them. I contributed the movie entries to a minor encyclopedia of science fiction and a major encyclopedia of fantasy. My “massive” encyclopedias have been of film noir and Disney’s animation.
70 it is then John. That’s a far more amazing output for sure! OK I confused your film noir, but perhaps was accidentally sidestepped by your link on this post. In any case by your own admission you spent four years of your life to compiling it and that really was the point I was trying to bring out here – the point that any science-fiction committee would love to have you as a member.
the point that any science-fiction committee would love to have you as a member
To be honest, I’m not sure that this is true. I spent four years working on the Clute/Nicholls Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, but I didn’t write any of the movie entries: the excellent Peter Nicholls did those.
I did do all the movie entries for a quite different, very concise SF encyclopedia.
More relevantly, I spent some years working on the pretty damn’ chunky Clute/me Encyclopedia of Fantasy, for which I wrote all but one of the movie entries; but those were fantasy movies and, although there’s some crossover, it’s not huge. Likewise, although there are a few sf/noir movies in my film noir encyclopedia, it’s only a few.
In other words, while I’m moderately competent to make comments and, who knows, even write an entry or three, I’m by no means the expert you suggest, and I’d certainly not think myself ideal fodder for a restricted panel of judges.
OK John, thanks for being honest. If I did err I erred in your favor, and not to your detriment. I’ll take that into account if a committee is chosen to handle this countdown, short of a return to the way it was before the two defections.
Of course there is more than a fair chance the voters will choose to restore the vote of the full membership, in which case this all would be moot anyway.
OK John, thanks for being honest. If I did err I erred in your favor, and not to your detriment.
I’m very grateful for your generosity of spirit, Sam!
Well Sam I’ve seen far more films than most film-watchers out there. However, I would have to do a bunch of research to get ready for the ins and outs of the sci-fi genre, which I’d be more than willing to do, however, that’s a lot of up front work, as you well know. I would be able to support if the request came forward to be part of this, however, as to who is selected for the committee, I think that should be handled by whoever is passionate enough to organize the thing and then discuss/debate who might be best called upon to participate based upon experience and exposure and passion for the genre etc. I’m not alluding to anyone in particular. I’m just saying that if you’re having a more narrow/focused committee, I wouldn’t allow myself to be on a select list of 4-6 folks. I don’t think I make the cut on Sci-fi.
I think that should be handled by whoever is passionate enough to organize the thing and then discuss/debate who might be best called upon to participate based upon experience and exposure and passion for the genre etc.
Hmm. This idea sounds vaguely familiar…
Yes I agree with this as well and do wish you’d be involved Jamie.
Yeah I mean not everyone is going to happy with the approach. Who cares? Can’t make everyone happy. Some have stepped up to the plate (Jamie, Allan, Maurizio, Sam) with the passion to carry this thing. I say more power to them! They’re willing to do the legwork and they therefore should have the right to do things the way they see fit.
The rest of us can follow or not. I am going to bet that most, if not all will still strongly support the endeavor.
I think keeping the countdown secret makes it more fun. It will also possibly help lead to more discussions and comments. Regardless of how the voting criteria turns out, not knowing the results is essential.
Maurizio, while I am not of the conviction that the secrecy element is a deal breaker -and I do believe there are trade offs when you go the way we’ve gone the last five times- I do believe as you note that it ADDS something, and if it can be tactically employed we need to work hard to institute it. I know we have gotten varying opinions here, but it it clear the majority would like to see that suspense element if possible.
One problem with the “secrecy” approach is that surely then you need to have all the essays written and compiled before the countdown begins, rather than the work being spread over the lifetime of the countdown. This would certainly have the advantage of obviating last-minute dropouts, of course, but it’d still require a heck of a lot of concentrated labor.
Ah yes John THAT is the big problem indeed! It is a trade off, and I am not yet sure if the community that will be writing these reviews-you and I included- would favor that kind of a demanding effort. That is why we need to discuss this further.
Keep in mind the secrecy we speak of is the secrecy for the site regulars and writers. The general readership -and hundreds of page views for practically every post confirm there is a substantial readership out there- would always be in secret anyway. Maurizio my friend, do you see this aspect as troubling?
However it’s done, someone is going to know the order of placement. It might be possible to tell each individual writer the due date for his particular essay. That would involve sending private emails for each essay but it would allow a lot more time for writing. Just a thought.
Duane that is certainly a sound suggestion and one that would seemingly answers both questions. In the end I will bring a direct vote to the entire e mail chain to see where they stand, but I will spell out your proposal here. Of course I will wait to see if there is a change of heart with the others, though it doesn’t look that way right now.
If a top 50 is implemented, a compromise would be to keep the top 20 secret. This would lessen the amount of essays needed up front.
You would set a earlier date for those 20 essays and only let the actual writer know that his/her film is due by that time (while still keeping him/her in the dark over actual placement). By doing this, Sam Juliano would be the only person who actually knows where each film ends up. The twenty writers would know their designated film is in the top 20, but not where it ultimately ends up. This would keep a sufficient level of secrecy, while not making the deadline daunting.
The other option is to set the deadline date way in advance of the polling results, and give all the writers a decent amount of time to give you their essays by a prearranged due date. Once you know which films make the countdown, you could send a mass email of the films in alphabetical order and give the writers a chance to select which they would like to write about. This would probably push the countdown towards a later date, but would keep 100% secrecy.
You guys are outlining problems that we accounted for (which makes the depression of the reception we received even more painful; it’s clear what we were laying out wasn’t even being read nor understood) and made clear; the order was going to be set and assignments handed out about 2 months BEFORE the countdown started. Meaning, the ‘crazy concentrated work’ was going be spread out over 8 weeks. No one was going to have to write more than 5 pieces probably and they have 2 months to even do that. For someone that only had to write 2 pieces they’d have a month for each. Either way, hardly a Herculean effort and was much of the reason we were thinking like we were… we wanted it to be FUN and NEVER a chore. Instead, it was lambasted, mocked, critiqued. The countdown was to start when all the work was 100% done. I/we thought, if all the work is done all that people can concentrate on is commenting and conversing.
Like Morrissey said in ‘Jeane’, “we tried and we failed, we tried and we failed… oh Jeane…”
Like Morrissey said in ‘Jeane’, “we tried and we failed, we tried and we failed… oh Jeane…”
Jamie, sad to say you apparently didn’t try hard enough, and if you did fail (a rather odd way to put it) it is only because the pressure of the discussion caused a state of resignation. You know well that I accepted and publicly endorsed the change. I stated my case repeatedly. If you will recall this entire SCIENCE FICTION COUNTDOWN idea was YOURS no? Our original plans were to go with the WAR FILM COUNTDOWN. I liked your proposal, but of course I had to inform the full membership what I was thinking, since this membership actively cast ballots in the LAST FOUR countdowns. They have earned the respect of a public announcement. As expected some loved the idea and a great number voiced their issues in a calm and civil manner. At the expense of being repetitious (but then repetition has characterized my comments and posts here for a few days now) I told the entire membership that if and when we did the WAR COUNTDOWN and beyond that we would revisit how we would do them. That position should have NEVER caused a pull out. Never. I stated my case with the SCIENCE FICTION COUNTDOWN again and again and again.
You would set a earlier date for those 20 essays and only let the actual writer know that his/her film is due by that time (while still keeping him/her in the dark over actual placement). By doing this, Sam Juliano would be the only person who actually knows where each film ends up. The twenty writers would know their designated film is in the top 20, but not where it ultimately ends up. This would keep a sufficient level of secrecy, while not making the deadline daunting.
Maurizio, I personally think you have nailed it here!
I want to clear the air about my own involvement in the sci-fi countdown. Since the troubles/drama of this project have gone public (a real shame IMO), I want to say I never cared either way how the countdown was voted on. It didn’t matter to me in the least if the people voting were an exclusive four, or if a larger committee was implemented. Since I was one of the four entrusted to curating a list, I would like to let everyone know where I stood in all this.
I will say…there was no precedence set with what was announced for the Sci-fi countdown. Previous projects have been run differently from each other since the beginning of WITD. Going to only four voters was not some coup or attack on the last five countdowns in the least. I ran the noir by myself, Jamie ran the horror with three other people, Allan did the decades alone, and Stephen ran the animation by himself as well. If I remember correctly, the musical also had a limited amount of people. It was just a decision (not by me) to shake things up after five similar countdowns and was done with good intentions. Obviously, troubles brewed behind the scenes (due to an assortment of reasons), and we are now left with this possibility of going back to a committee. And to be honest, that is completely fine with me. I didn’t consider it a problem anyway. I would just like to see the secrecy aspect reestablished whenever the sci-fi countdown gets off the ground (pun intended).
Well said. Golf clap.
Obviously, troubles brewed behind the scenes (due to an assortment of reasons), and we are now left with this possibility of going back to a committee.
Maurizio, I think what you meant to say here was that we are now left with the possibility of going back to a vote of the entire e mail membership, which is presently around 36 to 38. As you know we had a fair and healthy debate on several threads AFTER A DECISION WAS MADE TO GO WITH THIS FOUR MAN COMMITTEE. Two of the four members (you and I are the other two) pulled out surprisingly, despite the fact that I repeatedly stood by the rule change for a change of pace. Over and over and over I called on the 50% of the committee to reconsider, but I was basically told by one that my position that every countdown will have different specs (fair enough by any barometer of measurement) was unacceptable, and I was somehow courting disaster.
Yes Allan did the decades, and Stephen did the animation, and you did the noir and a four person committee did the horror. All well and good, and I supported and promoted EACH ONE of those ventures with the same boundless enthusiasm that I did the five I ran most recently. I did NOT get anywhere NEAR that level of support for my projects that I gave out and was told that rules I implemented was not agreeable to said party. There was massive controversy over the qualification aspects of the genre polls on the e mail threads, but somehow we survived to move forward.
ALL the countdowns were extremely successful. All. I have all the evidence to confirm this. And evidence is really all that counts in this picture. Yes I did take exception to unfounded charges that the just completed countdown was somehow lacking, and answered accordingly.
As to your disclosure here, I also applaud you with five golf claps. 🙂
Regardless of how the countdown goes, I prefer the secret aspect of the results. Only a few people should know the results but the rest, including most of the writers, will have to tune in regularly to see where the films fall. This will also mean getting everyone’s essays ahead of time, which I can tell from my personal experience will be beneficial as that will ensure we don’t have a scenario where an essay is missed.
I really had no idea the countdown was going to be changed and only found out in the last few days. At first, I figured it meant everyone would still vote for their films but a committee would decide on the final order, based on their decisions. However, I still welcomed the change when I found out a committee would choose all the films. I have fond memories of Maurizio’s Noir countdown and Allan’s decades and felt a committee could bring a nice curatorial aspect to the countdown. This would also mean certain relevant works would not be missed just because they didn’t get enough votes.
Sachin, be rest assured that the secrecy aspect has plenty of support by the membership.
If the two members who have pulled out remain on the sidelines – sad to say my prediction is that will remain that way though I hope I am wrong- I have to ensure this countdown moves forward.
In that case I will take a poll of the entire e mail membership and ask them if I should allow all active members to cast a ballot, or if I should form a committee. If the committee option should win then I would have to move to find a method to determine who would serve. Obviously someone like John Grant belongs there, and truthfully should be there now even if the departed return. Obviously Maurizio Roca will definitely be on the committee as he was on the one now abandoned.
Thank you my friend!